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watch truth be called treason



RIP Patrice brother you had it down pat. Fuck 'em baby!!!

"Several comments about it here on the Sift sing the tune of "if you don't like it, don't listen to it", but that is missing the point completely."

uh no... besides that being that actual and only point.... one who would post such are ignoring an egregious and combative point of view, that is a result of being offended personally, not because one is perpetuating any kind of crime themselves, but because stupid people who cant seperate comedy from reality are quite a burden... sometimes... but you can argue with patrice when you get there... somethings are more important than explaining humor to the humorless. go be offended elsewhere BECAUSE NO ONE GOT HURT WITH THE JOKE OMG

What did the nun say to the priest?

Nothing, she fingered herself watching him fuck a little boys ass.

only women can be raped??? so no more priest jokes then? oh wait you're ignoring anal rape of men, HOW DARE YOU BE SO INSENSITIVE TO NOT ADDRESS THIS RABBLERABBLERABBBLE IM DESERVE TEH ATTENTION ETC

Here's something interesting that is real: Semitic =/= Jewish. It refers to language origins. Arabs are Semitic too. Care to explain your oversight there? How certain people get to appropriate things to be offended about whilst denying anyone who disagrees as not allowed? Because....??? See the problem here with allowing people who are offended to just have their way... It leads to excuses that de facto result in violence because there is nothing to reason with.

Quoting for posterity here (and so you can look back on it when you are less drunk/high). Are you trying to make a point? If so, you are failing.
a) Would you like a list of the comments I'm referring to? Was looking at the comment thread under the video I link to too hard?
b) Nowhere did I say only women get raped. What's your point?
c) OED: "antisemitism: Hostility and prejudice directed against Jewish people; (also) the theory, action, or practice resulting from this." Keep grasping at straws dude. I made no oversight, antisemitism is common among Muslim Arabs and Africans. We're all Africans, that doesn't mean some of us aren't racist against Africans. See?
d) this dipshit makes the same mistake of comparing rape to diabetes. Is it like a meme or stg?

Next time you're going to post a giant response, think about it a bit, m'kay?
>> ^vaire2ube:

Watch Truth[video] watch truth be called treason [video] RIP Patrice brother you had it down pat. Fuck 'em baby!!!
"Several comments about it here on the Sift sing the tune of "if you don't like it, don't listen to it", but that is missing the point completely."
uh no... besides that being that actual and only point.... one who would post such are ignoring an egregious and combative point of view, that is a result of being offended personally, not because one is perpetuating any kind of crime themselves, but because stupid people who cant seperate comedy from reality are quite a burden... sometimes... but you can argue with patrice when you get there... somethings are more important than explaining humor to the humorless. go be offended elsewhere BECAUSE NO ONE GOT HURT WITH THE JOKE OMG
What did the nun say to the priest?
Nothing, she fingered herself watching him fuck a little boys ass.
only women can be raped??? so no more priest jokes then? oh wait you're ignoring anal rape of men, HOW DARE YOU BE SO INSENSITIVE TO NOT ADDRESS THIS RABBLERABBLERABBBLE IM DESERVE TEH ATTENTION ETC
Here's something interesting that is real: Semitic =/= Jewish. It refers to language origins. Arabs are Semitic too. Care to explain your oversight there? How certain people get to appropriate things to be offended about whilst denying anyone who disagrees as not allowed? Because....??? See the problem here with allowing people who are offended to just have their way... It leads to excuses that de facto result in violence because there is nothing to reason with.

I love Louis CK's discussion of this on The Daily Show.

http://videosift.com/video/TDS-Louis-CK-Talks-about-Tosh-Rape-Joke-Situation

You can make good jokes about the holocaust and rape. If you are intelligent, discerning, thoughtful. Not too many folks are in a world where Iran calls for Death to Israel and women are afraid to move freely through the world.

Thanks for your thoughtful analysis, hpqp. Good on you.

Don't shout, or you'll turn this rape into murder!

I think a better outcome would've been for Tosh to rip on the guy that suggested rape as a joke subject, instead of the woman who objected (even if she misunderstood his sarcasm and didn't "get it".)

Rape is funny.
Cheerios are funny.
Angler fish are funny.
Differential equations are funny.
Hitler is funny.
Hell is funny.
Fly tying is funny.
Feminism is funny.
Anti-feminism is funny.
Silly Putty is funny.

The real question is did you like the joke? If you did, laugh. If you didn't, don't laugh.

But to whinge and moan about it just to draw attention to yourself? Now that's funny.

My take on the subject is simple: is it funny?

That's the end of it where comedy is concerned. Regardless of what was said, if the content, delivery and context all add up to humour, then by definition it's not offensive to me.

As I've made clear, I think Tosh is to comedy what an accounting manual is to literature. I didn't find Toshs joke funny, but at the same time, I don't believe there was malice in it. I think it was just a bad joke.

I'm also uncertain as to what "rape culture" is. On the one hand, the kind of vitriol that gets spewed on XBox Live disgusts me, and is one of the reasons I can't be bothered with consoles. On the other hand, I though the controversy over Penny Arcades Sixth Slave comic was retarded.

>> ^ChaosEngine:

My take on the subject is simple: is it funny?
That's the end of it where comedy is concerned. Regardless of what was said, if the content, delivery and context all add up to humour, then by definition it's not offensive to me.


Why is this? Surely the intent matters. Take Ann Coulter, for instance. She often couches the ridiculous stuff she says in humor. Now the humor isn't usually very good, but suppose it was. Would that somehow magically make the content of what she is saying OK? I don't think so. If she's using humor to promulgate an ignorant and bigoted worldview, we can still call her out on the ignorance and bigotry.

Patrice O'Neal is a more pertinent example, and I talked about this in the other thread. He was a genuinely funny guy, and in his act (and elsewhere) he said a lot of horrible things about women. The thing is, he actually meant a lot of that stuff. Even his close friends admit that he was an actual misogynist. Does the fact that he was also funny somehow make his misogyny inoffensive?

Also, I think there are two separate points to consider here that some people (not necessarily you) are getting mixed up: (1) Are rape jokes funny?, (2) Are rape jokes offensive? The answer to both questions is "Some of them are." And the thing is, sometimes the exact same joke can be both funny and offensive. These properties can coexist. An actual racist can make a funny race joke, just like an actual misogynist can make a funny joke about women. The funniness does not erase the fact that these jokes, considering the intent behind them, should be condemned. Even if Tosh's joke had been hilarious (which it obviously wasn't) it still would have been really dickish, and I still would have thought that he ought to make a genuine apology to the woman if he is a decent human being.

Rape an exception? No, sir. There are no exceptions because everything's on the table when you have the First Amendment. Your example set in France was sweet and everything but it is utterly moot when there's a land across the pond where no topic is verboten in debate, discussion, and/or comedy.

Let me put it this way. In a country where the Westboro Baptist Church is protected for doing what they do by the highest court in that country, you better goddamn believe that we'll joke about rape when and if we feel like it. Bank on it.

Don't like it? Great. Your like/dislike, approval/disapproval is not a hurdle the First Amendment has to jump. Debate about the merits of the joke and/or topic all you want. The outcome of that debate will also present no impediment to the First Amendment. Short of libel and slander, feel free to demonize the participants if you feel you must. That's a right you have and a right I'll die defending.

In conclusion, rape is not an exception because exceptions do not enter into it.

That is all there is to say.

>> ^Sotto_Voce:

Why is this? Surely the intent matters. Take Ann Coulter, for instance. She often couches the ridiculous stuff she says in humor. Now the humor isn't usually very good, but suppose it was. Would that somehow magically make the content of what she is saying OK?

You're missing the point. Of course the intent matters. The intent goes to whether it's funny. Nothing Ann Coulter says can be funny because she's a fucking idiot. On the other hand, Stephen Colbert could repeat an exact speech of hers verbatim and be hilarious.

>> ^Sotto_Voce:

If she's using humor to promulgate an ignorant and bigoted worldview, we can still call her out on the ignorance and bigotry.

Yep and that's exactly what we do. I want to break this down a bit.

>> ^Sotto_Voce:

If she's using humor....

I would replace "using humor" with "attempting to use humour".

>> ^Sotto_Voce:

... to promulgate an ignorant and bigoted worldview...

and that's the point. Coulter isn't funny because she actually believes the vile crap she's espousing. If someone makes a joke about rape and actually believes that rape is in anyway acceptable.... that's not funny. If someone is using a joke about a horrific situation to make you think or take you to such an uncomfortable place that your only escape is to laugh at it, that's comedy genius.


>> ^Sotto_Voce:

Patrice O'Neal is a more pertinent example, and I talked about this in the other thread. He was a genuinely funny guy, and in his act (and elsewhere) he said a lot of horrible things about women. The thing is, he actually meant a lot of that stuff. Even his close friends admit that he was an actual misogynist. Does the fact that he was also funny somehow make his misogyny inoffensive?

I don't really want to comment on this because I'm not really familiar with O'Neals work or life. But let's assume for the sake of argument that what you say is true. It's possible to be really funny and still say unfunny things. If he was genuinely promoting misogyny is some of his material, did you still find it funny?

Personally, if something feels that wrong to me, I find it hard to see humour in it.

>> ^Sotto_Voce:

Also, I think there are two separate points to consider here that some people (not necessarily you) are getting mixed up: (1) Are rape jokes funny?, (2) Are rape jokes offensive? The answer to both questions is "Some of them are." And the thing is, sometimes the exact same joke can be both funny and offensive. These properties can coexist.

I don't really believe so. A funny joke can be shocking, uncomfortable or even borderline offensive, but if you're actually laughing at something, the joke itself was not sufficiently offensive to become unfunny.

>> ^Sotto_Voce:

Even if Tosh's joke had been hilarious (which it obviously wasn't) it still would have been really dickish, and I still would have thought that he ought to make a genuine apology to the woman if he is a decent human being.


To me, it's about your own moral compass. Toshs joke wasn't funny precisely because there was only dickishness to a relatively innocent victim (I say relatively because she went to his show, it's not like he's an unknown).

>> ^shuac:

Rape an exception? No, sir. There are no exceptions because everything's on the table when you have the First Amendment. Your example set in France was sweet and everything but it is utterly moot when there's a land across the pond where no topic is verboten in debate, discussion, and/or comedy.
Let me put it this way. In a country where the Westboro Baptist Church is protected for doing what they do by the highest court in that country, you better goddamn believe that we'll joke about rape when and if we feel like it. Bank on it.
Don't like it? Great. Your like/dislike, approval/disapproval is not a hurdle the First Amendment has to jump. Debate about the merits of the joke and/or topic all you want. The outcome of that debate will also present no impediment to the First Amendment. Short of libel and slander, feel free to demonize the participants if you feel you must. That's a right you have and a right I'll die defending.
In conclusion, rape is not an exception because exceptions do not enter into it.
That is all there is to say.


You're arguing against a strawman. I'm pretty sure that when hpqp said rape is an exception he/she didn't mean it should be a legal exception. The argument is not that comedians making tasteless rape jokes should be fined, so nobody is attacking the First Amendment here. The argument is that certain sort of rape jokes should not be considered socially or morally legitimate. I think racism shouldn't be considered socially or morally legitimate, but I don't think the government has any business punishing racists.

So yeah, nobody disagrees with what you're saying here as far as I'm aware.

Yeah, I did sometimes. Sometimes I can appreciate a well-crafted joke or comic routine even if I think the message behind it is despicable, just as I can appreciate the artistry in a Leni Riefenstahl film.

Here's an example of a Patrice O'Neal bit that I find funny (mainly because of the way he delivers it) but also pretty horrifying. And the horrifying part is that I'm pretty sure he actually means that shit (actually, this bit is pretty tame by his standards). This is not Patrice O'Neal putting on a purposely ridiculous chauvinistic persona. He's not pulling a Borat. This is Patrice O'Neal telling it how he thinks it is. He saw himself as a brave and honest crusader revealing brutal truths about gender relations that no one else had the balls to reveal.

>> ^ChaosEngine:

If he was genuinely promoting misogyny is some of his material, did you still find it funny?

Comedian Bill Burr made a great analogy the other day. Oddly enough he was not referring to the Daniel Tosh incident as this was a few days before that incident took place.

What he said was: "Watching an old woman falling down the stairs would be a HORRIBLE thing to see. Yet if you watched it happen in a Will Ferrell movie (or something) it would be hilarious"



His point being, it is possible (some say necessary) to laugh at the dark side of life and humanity.



Gilbert Gottfried also chimed in on this same topic in his editorial about the Daniel Tosh incident:



"have always felt comedy and tragedy are roommates. If you look up comedy and tragedy, you will find a very old picture of two masks. One mask is tragedy. It looks like it's crying. The other mask is comedy. It looks like it's laughing."

This isn't about jokes at all. It's about any kind of communication. It just happens that most of the questionable communication that involves rape in our society happens to be stand-up comics because controversy and uncomfortable topics are their bread and butter. It could be a joke, a manifesto, a painting or an idle comment on a Sift video. Point is, it's not about jokes at all, never mind whether the joke is funny.

Anything that promotes rape is unacceptable socially. Things that involve rape in any other way are socially acceptable. It's up to people who witness the delivery to decide if it promotes rape or not.

I don't think this should be controversial. It's like racism. I doubt anybody here would say that all jokes about blacks are fine, because overwhelmingly they promote racism.

Bottom line, telling jokes about rape doesn't promote rape necessarily, but sometimes it does.
[slight editing for clarity]

About the Tosh incident in particular. I normally hate the defence, "You weren't there so you don't know the whole story," because it's usually used by apologists in contexts when there's plenty enough context available to make a reasonable judgement. In the case of a comedian during a show, however, it's not just applicable, it's crucial. Until we know exactly how he delivered those lines, how the audience was reacting, what the vibe was, and so on, there's nothing we can say. When I picture Tosh in my mind saying those things, I see him egging her on to make a fool out of herself so the audience will turn on her, which is what a good comedian does to hecklers. I may be wrong, but either way, we really don't know enough to condemn or defend it.

You can make jokes about anything, but some jokes just fall flat. Happens to everyone. Most everyone knows that "wouldn't it be funny if you were raped by like 5 guys right now" is a bad joke, but on the spot, anyone could make a bad joke when heckled.

Let's just get back to killing the jews and getting women back in the kitchen and move on.

Hi everyone. This most definitely isn't blankfist.

"just as I can appreciate the artistry in a Leni Riefenstahl film"....

My kid sister could photograph a film on par with a Leni Riefenstahl "Masterverk", and she was born without eyes!

>> ^not_blankfist:

Hi everyone. This most definitely isn't blankfist.


How'r those ankles feelin' pardner? Hope the time away hasn't sullied your trousers more than ya can tolerate...What's yer take on this here "Rape" subject? Personally, I find jokes about raping women disagreeable and crude, a cheap attempt to appeal to a crowd I'd rather not be around.

I am also of the opinion that a sexual violation, if properly implemented can clear chakras, enliven digestion and overall constitution, and in some instances I would imagine initiate great renewal and calm in an individual receptive to the message.

I'm just going to give my opinion here, mostly because George Carlin is my hero, and because I'm interested in the topic:

Regarding things being offensive:
There isn't any topic known anywhere to human kind that won't offend someone. Whether it's daisies or pancakes or pinwheels someone, somewhere, can be offended by it. I guarantee it. This is just my opinion, but I don't think that anyone has the right to 'not be offended.'

Regarding comedians:
People mostly don't seem to realize the importance of humor in all of our lives. Comedians play a very important role in the collective human community that cannot be replaced. They help us deal with parts of ourselves that would otherwise be unacceptable for us to even sometimes think about. Just like the court jester who might otherwise get himself beheaded if he were a normal person suggesting the king was fat. Almost all humor, successful or not, makes people feel uncomfortable. The very best humor makes people really uncomfortable. Laughter itself is a response to these same situations and events that we just have a little-bit of a hard time dealing with. I think this is why comedians, while onstage, are given a free pass. Even their televised specials get edited for content, but the only time a comedian gets kicked off stage in a club is when no one is laughing. What they're saying implies a lot more about the people laughing than it does about the comedian. Follow me?

And it's important to remember that most comedians are artists who are immersed in their material. Most have specific routines that are worked out over and over again, tweeking the tone and meter until they become almost meaningless to the comedians themselves. This is why you rarely see experienced comedians laughing at their own jokes, they've just heard them too many times. And even when they are performing improvisationally, like Tosh was during the event in question, they aren't saying things that they think are funny, specifically, they are saying things that they think the audience will find funny. It may seem like a small distinction, but it can make a big difference in understanding why some jokes are made. Some comedians have a style based on saying shocking, offensive things, and it's they're job. They are paid to make an audience laugh, and whether you like him or not, Tosh gets paid.

And the particular incident and joke:
This whole thing was brought up by a woman who was at a show and heard something she didn't like. She retorted back from the audience that rape isn't funny. To which Tosh retorted back that it would be funny if the woman was "raped by like five guys." Now, according to the woman, that made her actually fear for her safety and she got up and left. I'm not going to debate her sanity, if she really felt threatened, then that's terrible and I feel bad for her. But there are a few things that need to be pointed out here:

1: Tosh didn't threaten anyone. Had he said: "you five guys over there should rape this woman," it would not only be offensive to many people, but it also could have been perceived as a legitimate threat that, maybe, could have been pursued legally.

2: Hecklers are always dealt with harshly. And so should they be. Complain all you want about a person outside of a show but when you go to a comedy club, you have agreed that it's that person's time to talk. And so has everyone else who paid money to listen to them, not you. They're up there making a living, succeeding or failing at the expense of their own ass, not yours. It should be noted here that the woman said she left the room to the laughter of the entire audience.

3: You do not have the right to not be offended, especially if you are at a fucking comedy club. There was a pretty famous incident with Joan Rivers when she was joking about deaf people on stage, and a man in the audience stood up and started yelling at her because his daughter was deaf and he didn't find her jokes funny. Well, Joan Rivers responded that her own mother was deaf, and that she'd had to deal with that on her own terms. Comedy was something that helped her deal with that (because comedy is a useful tool) and if he didn't like it, he could go fuck himself. And that's the thing, you never know people's story. The girl at Tosh's show couldn't know Tosh's experience with rape, just like he couldn't know hers. And if you don't think people who've experienced a major tragedy can joke about the horrible events in their lives, I invite you to go watch some Bob Saget material. Humor is subjective. Saying you don't think something should be allowed because it's not funny, is exactly the same as saying something shouldn't be allowed because you don't think it's funny. Whatever it is, you can bet that someone out there finds it funny, even if it's nonsense.

Rape jokes are hardly ever funny. Even Carlin's few never got much of a laugh. But jokes are thoughts, and I'd really rather people stop trying to police thoughts. If someone finds a joke threatening, then deal with the threat, not the joke. And if someone finds a joke offensive, well...

@Ryjkyj,

I don't get what or who you're objecting to here. Look, I'm with you that we shouldn't be policing thoughts, but I don't see anyone advocating that. Nobody has suggested that Tosh be legally banned from making rape jokes. What happened is that the woman heckled (which I agree she shouldn't have done), Tosh responded in a way that many people consider extremely assholish and some people consider threatening (and words can be threatening without being direct threats). The woman's friend blogged about it, not with the intention of getting Congress to pass a bill against joking about rape, but with the intention of publicizing the fact that Tosh is a douchecanoe. Surely having that information out there is a good thing. This way, people who don't want to support this kind of thing know that they should avoid Tosh shows. Nobody is preventing people who don't mind the joke from attending Tosh shows in the future. In addition, a number of people think Tosh owes the woman a sincere apology, but again no one is saying that he should be forced to apologize. People are saying that if he were a decent human being he would apologize.

What exactly in this chain of events do you find so objectionable (besides the initial heckling)? Where is the thought policing here? I feel like I'm in Bizarro world sometime when I'm discussing these things. I'll say something like "That joke was racist and not cool at all" and people will respond with "Don't you respect free speech? Do you want there to be a thought police? What about the First Amendment?" That sort of response just seems like a complete non sequitur.

Damn, I forgot to tick the "email me when comments" box and missed out on half the discussion I started

One strawman needs to be definitely burnt right now, and it's the whole "offended" thing: nowhere did I argue that a comedian (or anyone) has no right to be offensive, and @Ryjkyj is right to say that everything is offensive to someone. I agree with Steve Hughes about offensiveness. Another strawman is the whole "waaah you're attacking my free speech!" clause that is often bandied about by those who have the worst things to say (e.g. WBC or the MRA-holes on the web). Nobody's saying you shouldn't be allowed to say horrible and/or offensive things, but you should be condemned (morally and socially, not legally) for doing so, especially when what you say borders on threatening (just as an aside, @shuac, for all your 1st amendment wonderfulness in the US I'm pretty sure there are exceptions, e.g. threatening someone or, you know, yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre ).
I agree that heckling is a huge no-no, and I agree that Tosh had the right (nay, obligation) to shut her up, but the way he did it seems to say something pretty terrible about his mindset. Had it been Louis CK on stage he probably would've retorted with a hilarious rape joke, proving the woman wrong without resorting to base intimidation.

_{(As for the term "rape culture", it is a controversial concept in feminism that I only partly agree with; it would be more accurate to call it "violence against women culture", but you can see why they chose the short and shocking title.)}

This really is another storm in a bloody teacup.

@ChaosEngine brought up the perfect example of what's wrong on both sides of this type of thing with the Penny Arcade Sixth Slave comic debacle. That comic was absolutely innocuous. Having a slave say they were raped to sleep by dickwolves was merely a ludicrously horrible statement to show what a terrible existence the slave had, and why the player ignoring their pleas because they had fulfilled their quota was such a hilariously callous reaction.

To think that someone could read that and be offended, be offended enough to write a bloody blog post, is just stunning. It absolutely demonstrates a demeanour that's looking for the worst in everything and not the humour. I get that you may not find the comic funny, but to actually get riled up by it, to actually think it was worth telling people that you got riled up by it is stunning.

But then we get to the other ugly side of things. We have people who get angry at the people who got offended, and so they start attacking them (verbally), and start saying just horrible, mean spirited, ugly things. They start saying misogynistic, aggressive things that seem to demonstrate an ACTUAL core of anger/hatred towards women.

And that becomes scary.

So I think both sides are usually wrong in these cases:

* Those who get offended:
A lot of the time have very little reason to actually be offended (especially in the penny arcade example), it's as if they're attuned to their own little sphere of outrage and if someone mentions one of their keywords then they'll go nuts, regardless of the intent of a given joke.

* Those who made the initial joke and/or those who defend them:
Far, far, FAR too often they end up really attacking those that were offended, becoming vile and disgusting and not showing any restraint or compassion at all. Mike Krahulik demonstrates how NOT to handle something like the dickwolves incident. The correct way? 'Sorry you were offended by it, really don't understand how anyone could be, we're not taking it down as we don't see anything wrong with it. Let this be the end of it'. But nooo, he pushed and pushed and pushed it.

Louis CK, as usual, demonstrated that he can joke about horrible things and come up trumps because it's ALWAYS obvious that he's saying things in jest and from a good place (or for pure shock value). When someone says something so shit as 'It'd be funny if she was gang raped right now' without a damn strong demonstration that it was in jest and in no way meant to be mean or serious... well then that's a dick move and probably should be called out.

But for it to be as big as it's got? Gah!

@hpqp

I agree with you (I think). If I'm reading your post correctly you're saying that people shouldn't be able to say something reprehensible and then hide behind the "it's just a joke" shield to avoid criticism about what they said. CK Louis was right I think--most comedians have a hard time dealing with criticism. It's easier to attack the people who don't think the joke is funny by insisting they don't have a sense of humor than it is to admit your joke bombed.

I have no idea if things went down the way the blogger says they did, but when I heard what Tosh allegedly said, my first thought was that he crossed the line. I think rape is a valid topic to joke about but he was no longer joking about rape as an abstract concept, he was basically intimidating a member of the audience in order to shut her up so he could get on with his show. No, I don't think he was serious (if he really said it) but he certainly deserved to be criticized for the alleged intimidation.

The problem (as is amply demonstrated in this thread) is that the public debate got distracted by irrelevant 1st amendment rights hysteria, discussions of which topics were "appropriate" for comedy, what is or isn't offensive, etc. when really, like you said, the issue is whether or not Tosh used the implied threat of rape to silence a critic.